This is the abridged (tidied up) transcript of Episode 79 on the Coffee and Contemplation podcast.
I have experienced grief in my own life, as have many close friends and family members. We also had the pleasure of hearing from Victoria Wilson-Crane, author of Sixteen Days, in an earlier podcast episode. Please note that the thoughts, beliefs, and perspectives of every guest, including Vicki’s in this episode, reflect their personal journey. For Vicki, that journey is one of experiencing inspired grief and healing. This conversation offers an interesting point of view that may or may not resonate with others who are walking their path forward after the passing of a loved one. Thus, I felt it would be respectful to state this, given each individual’s unique journey and circumstances. Please read or listen if you wish, if it might help you; Vicki shares that it was helpful for another participant in her grief counselling group. We hope you find value in the discussion.
If you’d prefer to listen to the audio podcast, I’m sharing the link here for you to find the 42-minute audio episode on Spotify or to subscribe and listen via my YouTube Podcast.
Susan Dunlop: Welcome to the Coffee and Contemplation with Susan Dunlop podcast, where we explore transformative stories and innovative ideas that empower individuals to live their best lives. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Vicky Paris Goodman, author of To Sam With Love, a surviving spouse’s story of inspired grief.
Vicky’s journey through grief after the loss of her husband, Sam, offers a unique perspective on finding hope and optimism. Her story is not just about coping with grief, but about discovering new possibilities and embracing a life filled with meaning and purpose. So let’s dive into how Vicki turned her personal tragedy into a beacon of inspiration and insights for others.
Welcome, Vicki.
Vicki Paris Goodman: thank you, Susan.
Susan Dunlop: Vicki, you and I connected mid-year, and you shared about your writing and what you’d like to talk about today.
You also sent me three audio files and I reviewed them to help me with my due diligence in preparing to have you on the show. Thank you for those. And we’ve so much to talk about. I would like to begin with the fact that your story is incredibly uplifting, especially considering the loss of your husband.
Can you share what initially sparked your unexpected optimism in the face of such profound grief?
Vicki Paris Goodman: Yes, I was flooded with optimism on the day Sam passed. This was the love of my life, and we’d had two years from his diagnosis till his passing. Still, I was shocked to see sunlight coming through the clouds on the day he passed.
It felt like a helping hand was coming from somewhere outside. To guide me in a direction that I wasn’t really prepared to go. It was unexpected. Now I know that was very likely God, but what makes this story of mine even more stunning, I think, I was raised in a very secular family, I had begun to believe in a higher power just because nothing else made sense. That happened some years ago, but I hadn’t taken that belief very far. I just knew that there must be something.
The helping hand began to guide me on the very day Sam passed. I thought this is very strange because even though I’m not a pessimistic person, I’m not particularly optimistic either. I’m middle of the road. What is happening here? Is it Sam coming already from the afterlife to guide me, or God or both of them, I wasn’t sure.
And it was so soon after his passing, we’re talking a couple of hours that I thought it seemed, unseemly. My first instinct was to push it away, but then I thought, I’ve been so strong during our two-year ordeal and I took such good care of Sam at the end when he needed taking care of, that maybe if good things want to come my way, even this early, I should let them.
It turned out to be the best decision I could have made. All kinds of wonderful things started to happen. I was blessed with insights and serendipitous events, like signs from the afterlife. These opportunities came my way, and I felt motivated to embrace them to do things I might not otherwise have done.
Susan Dunlop: I’d like to circle back to that day. Within two hours. What was your and your husband’s state? Your relationship, how you were relating that close to the end? Was he relating to you? Did he say anything that gave you any guidance as to how he would like you to feel once he was gone?
Vicki Paris Goodman: No. The reason for that is because no one told us that Sam had liver cancer, so what Sam really died of wasn’t directly the cancer. It hadn’t progressed far enough to kill him. But it destroyed his liver.
When the liver starts to fail, ammonia levels start rising. And so you’re unable to speak or think very clearly toward the end. If we had been warned, maybe we would have had some conversations in advance of that happening. I don’t know if we would have or not. I’m hoping we would have, but we didn’t really have the chance because suddenly ammonia levels were rising, and Sam wasn’t quite himself and that was worse and worse. So we never really had a chance to have any conversations about it.
Susan Dunlop: It’s a strange thing, isn’t it? Even though it’s a two-year journey. I suppose at the age that we both are, we have had experiences of people losing loved ones. Some have been so prepared, and others have had their partner totally deny that they were ever going to die. But it was very clear that they were. That two years can mean anything, I’m glad I asked that question because I was picturing you two having this lovely conversation, and then he just slipped away. We can’t presume what people have been through, either.
Vicki Paris Goodman: No, not at all.
I knew I had no control over that. What’s done was done. And so I think about it sometimes, gee, I wish I’d talked more to Sam about this or that, but I have reason to believe he’s around. So I talk to him, he doesn’t talk back, but I talk to him and I tell him about those regrets. Not so much anymore, but I did earlier on, and it felt good to at least get that out there. Probably he already knew because he probably knew what I was thinking.
Susan Dunlop: What caught my attention was you saying that during the grieving process, you found it important to balance social activity with your personal time. Can you elaborate on how the balance helps you, or any practical advice you’ve got for others navigating that challenge?
Vicki Paris Goodman: There’s so much to this, but first of all strike a balance between activities and quiet time. In my case, I rejoined the orchestra that I had played violin in before we got Sam’s diagnosis and I’d quit, so that I could be with him. I quit several things, rejoined the orchestra almost immediately. I thought, why not? It’ll give me some distraction and something to do.
My brother-in-law, Sam’s brother, actually told me this. He said, and very well intended. He’s a sweetheart of a guy, but I knew it was bad advice. I just knew instinctively. He said, keep yourself as busy as possible so you don’t have time to think or feel. I thought that couldn’t possibly be the way to do this.
It seemed very natural for me to do some things that I could have fun and enjoy while processing what had happened to my life. Quiet time can be taking a walk, sitting and doing nothing or reading a book, but you just have to be in a situation where it’s possible for the thoughts to come to you.
That worked so well for me. It was put to the test a few months after Sam passed in July of 2019, and what happened was COVID. And so that upset that balance I had established. It was only seven months later. And suddenly, I was spending more time alone than I otherwise would have.
This support group I was going to immediately shut down and they didn’t continue over Zoom or anything. The orchestra stopped. Everything I was doing stopped. Fortunately, I had some friends that didn’t care and they said, we’re getting together anyway. That was such a blessing because at least I had some social events that I could count on.
But the rest of the time I was just at home, and I’m sure the anxiety from the initial uncertainty that we all had when COVID hit contributed to this. So what happened was I experienced the only depression of Sam’s passing period. So I had seven months of no depression at all. Sadness? Yes, at times. Especially in the evenings, but I didn’t actually have any depression during that time. After COVID hit, I had 10-day depressions during the next year or year and a half. They were awful. And I know that the circumstances we were all living under at the time were to blame.
Susan Dunlop: I think a lot of people have experienced different emotions because of COVID. Times that we went through, none of us realised that’s what we were going to experience, whether we were grieving or otherwise. But you’ve got me thinking about what I felt. I was present at my dad’s passing and I was just telling him it was time, it was safe for him to leave because he just had to give up that day.
I remember the peace afterwards and it was quite a beautiful peace. There were so many tears, but I sat with him from like 2 am till 6 am till my brother came turned up from the other side of Australia. It was just a lovely feeling knowing that he was free.
Grief fits into your life in a way, a lot of times, I think, because we’re all so busy too. We’ve got things that we’re trying to do in our own companies or with our families that, grief is something I feel society doesn’t really know what to do about. Do you feel that?
Vicki Paris Goodman: Absolutely. One of the best insights I received was after I published the book and it’s in the audio episodes. I asked the question, is death really tragic? It’s a startling question, but when I explain it in my audio episodes I think it makes more sense.
Now, you do have to have a particular belief system. You have to believe in a loving God and a beautiful beyond-words afterlife. I find most people I run across do have that belief system. If you do, then it makes sense that if God has a plan for each one of us, it’s atypical for a married couple, to both pass at the same time. They don’t usually pass in a plane crash or a car crash. Usually, one passes first. And so if God’s plan is to have that happen, then if our loved one who passed goes to a beautiful afterlife and is surrounded by an all encompassing love that is indescribable to us here on earth, then what’s so terrible about them going there?
And if God has a plan for us, or for me, as the survivor, to learn more lessons, experience more things, maybe even teach others. Why is that tragic? I was one who believed most of my life that there is an ideal life comprised of meeting someone fairly early on, getting married, and then being with that person for your entire life until maybe you’re in your 80s or 90s, and then you pass within fairly short order of one another, and that’s the ideal life.
Now I think this is another insight God blessed me with after Sam passed. Why does that have to be the ideal? Why can’t there be more than one ideal? Or no ideal? Maybe it’s just God’s plan for some of us to live that life with one person in its entirety. For others, we are meant to live a more compartmentalised or segmented life. To do chapters of life, to do very distinct things in each of those chapters, or to be with more than one person.
Susan Dunlop: I’m seeing that now in how the people in their 20s and 30s are living like. They have got multiple relationships and they’re not even interested in what someone’s sexual identity is. It’s about the spirit of the person within them that is what they’re really attracted to. So I’m seeing that blossoming and yeah, there are no rules anymore. I was born of the era when, I was Catholic, and that you had to get married before you moved out of home with your partner, stuck by those rules. I was the only person in my family who stuck by the rules, but I started that way in my relationship with my husband, and we’re still together 40 years later. It’s not every person nowadays has that at all.
Everyone’s saying, no, I’m going to move on, or I’m going to travel, I think it’s interesting to hear what you’re sharing, that’s your perspective on it.
What other misconceptions do you come across about death? How do you suggest people shift their perspectives beyond what you just shared?
Vicki Paris Goodman: How do I suggest they shift their perspectives? if you do have this belief system, a loving God, beautiful afterlife, God has a plan for us. Not that we don’t have any free will, we do, but I still think there’s a general plan for each one of us.
It just seems to make sense. But I think if a person would really like a reason to grieve less strongly, not for as long, because there seems to be, there seemed to be a lot of societally or culturally induced conceptions about death, the way death is awfulised by our culture.
And the same thing for grief. We feel that we need to be guilty if we want to move on sooner to that next chapter of life than we think we should. Everybody has a slightly different conception about how long that period of grief should be. And if they don’t do it per the plan, they feel very guilty about it.
And I say that souls in the afterlife, surrounded by this incredible love, don’t experience negative emotions, like anger or jealousy. They only want what will make us the happiest. So if we feel compelled to move into that next chapter of life, even immediately after their passing or begin the process, with that balance, we talked about activities and quiet time, they should go ahead and do that.
They don’t have to feel guilty about it. There’s no reason for that. In my opinion, it’s a waste of time I don’t feel the least bit guilty about anything that happened, the helping hand guided me not to feel that way. It was really quite a stunning occurrence for me, given how secular I was up until that point.
The way I solidified my belief in God and in the afterlife after that was that I happened to mention to the hospice chaplain that I had access to about once a month for a full year after Sam passed. I took advantage of that and would talk to her. Those sessions were very enlightening.
Right off the bat, I started asking her about the afterlife. I wanted to know where Sam was. And if he was still around, she recommended the story of a neurosurgeon who had always poo-pooed the near-death experiences of his patients.
He developed a brain infection, had no wounds that would allow that infection into his body, and was in a coma with this infection. For seven days, his colleagues in the hospital were taking care of him. They couldn’t get the infection under control.
They said he will die. We cannot get this under control. And if by some miracle he should survive, he will be in a vegetative state for the rest of his life, his brain has already been destroyed. He comes back to resume his career, write the book, go on speaking tours, no brain damage whatsoever.
The whole thing is so divinely inspired. And his story was so convincing that it took me the rest of the way to fully believe in God and the afterlife.
Susan Dunlop: I was raised a Catholic by strict grandparents and parents; everything was about guilt and sin. It didn’t do much good for our family. Our family struggled with a lot of internal trauma because we weren’t allowed to talk. We were always scared that we were going to go to hell, basically.
So I’ve come from that origin. And then, I raised my children in the Catholic faith. They went to the Catholic schools and I gave them something that they had a belief in so that there was something there for them. I don’t know that I have that anymore though, I think because of the harm that was caused in the early days.
When I’m listening to you, I know that my view of heaven is everyone before me sitting up on a couch, looking down on me, going, what’s she up to now? I’m feeling judged. I came across that in my healing journey, and I have cleared that thought, but that was where I’d come to with my belief in God, was that I was being judged. What do you think about that?
Vicki Paris Goodman: If you read some of these near-death experiences, because I read a few more after I read the story of the neurosurgeon, they have certain things in common that kind of make me question some of the dogma of organised religions.
I still think, I don’t want to put down organised religion. I was raised secular and I don’t really have any judgments about it. All I can say is from reading these near-death experiences, which were my pathway to believing in God in the afterlife and in God having a plan for each one of us, there were certain aspects that were common to these near death experiences and certain ways in which they differed.
And I had some theories about all that, but I don’t want to get into all that because we don’t have the time right now. But that’s why I come from the place I’m coming from now, primarily from what is reported in so many of these near-death experiences. I don’t know what others think about all that, but it was my way of getting to where I am now.
And it seems to make sense. I was a mechanical engineer. I don’t come to believe in things that can’t be proven very easily. I’ve always been a logical, analytical type. I read this story, and now I believe. Most of us get thunderbolts of wisdom, maybe once every five or 10 years, and we think, Oh, I’d never thought of that before. Maybe I should think on that some more. Sometimes, it’s enough to change our belief system. This was happening right and left, probably happened 10 times within the first year or two after Sam passed. And I thought this is coming from somewhere else.
These insights about death not being tragic, I had to pay attention because this just isn’t my nature. This was coming from somewhere else. Maybe God had chosen me to be the messenger. I don’t know. I was raised secular, which makes it all the more believable, perhaps because I haven’t been this way until very recently; I’ve spent an entire lifetime almost not believing in any of it.
Plus, I’m very analytical, so I don’t come to a belief system like this very easily. I speak fairly well. I write even better than I speak. And maybe I have the skill set for God to have chosen me to get this job. Get this message out there so that people don’t grieve so hard and so long.
Susan Dunlop: I think it’s a beautiful thing. I have no issues with anyone’s beliefs and I think that faith has played a role in your dealing with what you experienced and that sense of spiritual healing that you went through is beautiful. Is there anything you can share on that aspect for people who want to understand that step? Who did you speak to that helped you move into this greater sense of spiritual understanding?
Vicki Paris Goodman: One interesting thing that happened is until COVID, I was going to this grief support group and it didn’t help me all that much. But a man joined our group a few weeks after I did, who was so visibly upset by the passing of his wife. Because of what we’ve already discussed happened to me starting on the day Sam passed. And insights were coming in, and I was talking about all this. I wasn’t talking like the usual person who goes to a grief support group. Now when he came, he was so weepy, I thought, boy, I better tread lightly, here.
I tried to talk about how I moved on more easily than I expected, and this is why I tried to speak in such a way that first time he joined our group so that he wouldn’t be offended, but I could maybe open up some possibilities in his mind. It was an experiment I thought would be worth having if I didn’t offend him in any way. I tried to come up with a way of presenting some of these ideas gently.
He told me a couple of weeks later, he almost immediately stopped crying. And a couple of weeks later, he was already baking cookies for our group every week. He was bringing cookies to the group after the first week.
And he said, Vicki, You really made me consider another path forward. It feels better than what I was expecting to go through. I can’t tell you how that made me feel because I’m not the helpful type. I’ve always been self-involved primarily because of some stuff that happened in my childhood, so I haven’t been outwardly focused. When it occurred to me, maybe I could help him, or I had helped him. That was my first inkling that maybe I had found a way in my retirement, to help others because I’d never been the volunteer type.
And it felt so good, even though I didn’t know whether I could do it or not, at least I see a path to trying it out. So here I am.
Susan Dunlop: And you gave that man hope. You gave him hope that he could see there was an alternate path. We have buckets full of tears in us that have to be poured out up to the stage of the funeral. All that has to come, but you’ve got to get all those tears to waterfall down your face, I think. But after that, you gave him that next stage, which is a beautiful thing. That was in part two of your series. You talk about that type of thing in the audio series. I found it interesting.
Vicki Paris Goodman: Part two was the insight about death not being tragic. I think that’s very helpful to people if they can see it.
Susan Dunlop: Yeah.
Vicki Paris Goodman: It’s just a part of life. Everybody’s going to die. You can say what about a child who passed? Maybe that child was more pure or more perfect than the rest of us and didn’t have to live a life learning lessons. Maybe it was taken to the afterlife early in their life. I don’t know the answer but again, I have thoughts about it, some of which I just stated but I still don’t think that going to the afterlife, this beautiful place to be with God and all of the beautiful things there, meaning you didn’t get to live 70 years on earth first, maybe that’s not so terrible because we all know life is hard.
Susan Dunlop: We were watching the speed bikes racing around the Isle of Mann. They race at 300 kilometres an hour through these narrow streets of these old cottagey towns, and they know that there is a risk that they will die. And I remember watching, they were doing a practice lap, and a new young man whose wife and little baby was there, he died in that practice lap.
But everyone afterwards was just like, you know what? He loved what he was doing. I’m so glad for him that he died doing something that he loved. It was a really interesting feeling in the tent. We were all there having beers in honor of him. I’ve seen that perspective, and I feel like there’s spirit; I know there is spirit.
I just think I’ve closed my old-fashioned childhood picture of what heaven looks like when you used to see all those pictures in storybooks. So I think I’ve closed that out, but I do know there is something beyond here. My husband and I talk about it a lot. If I lost him, I would be so deeply sad, but he’s not worried about dying.
Vicki Paris Goodman: That’s the bonus that comes from this belief system. You have no reason to fear death if you truly embrace these concepts. I don’t want to die today. I’m not afraid of it, but I still have things I want to do. I’ve just finished writing my second book and will send it to some friends to read before it gets published. I want to see it in print and play more concerts with the orchestra and I want to do more things with my friends, to travel to more places. So it’s not that I wouldn’t be disappointed if God decided to take me today, but I don’t have to fear it anymore and that’s a biggie.
Susan Dunlop: That’s huge. It is huge. I was going to talk to you about your upcoming book, Speed Bumps. Tell me a little bit about that.
Vicki Paris Goodman: Oh, it’s very self-deprecating. So Speed Bumps and Other Impediments To Life In The Fast Lane.
I love the title. It’s about the trials of life, but especially from the point of view of a type A personality. Type A, at least the way I define it, is that impatient, driven type of person who is even compulsive in some ways. Who can’t relax or finds it very difficult to.
That’s the way I’ve spent most of my life. I’m better now. But that’s what I wrote about. And I completely open myself up. I give enough examples that people should know by the time they finish reading this book exactly who I am and why I’m the way I am.
And how it’s manifested itself in some good ways because type A’s tend to be productive. But a lot are not so good ways. and it’s entertaining and it’s funny. And yeah, we’ll see what my friends have to say.
Susan Dunlop: Can you share any memorable feedback or stories from readers? How do those stories reinforce your commitment to sharing this journey?
Vicki Paris Goodman: Okay, so now we’re talking about my first book Sam with Love, A Surviving Spouse’s Story of Inspired Grief, I think you’ll agree after hearing about what I experienced right after Sam passed that it was inspiring.
So I decided to keep that phrase in there. People have called the book a page-turner. It was my first book. I had no idea how it would go over and everybody’s saying I couldn’t put it down. That was really gratifying. But as to how it helped them, everyone who has commented on that aspect said It opened up a new world of possibilities for them because the book is less about the insights, and there are some of them in the book, but I think some of the less important ones.
The book is mostly about my experience after Sam passed and how I was so motivated to embrace these opportunities and possibilities that were coming my way and how it produced a very exciting life for me. I think it’s an example that will inspire others and it has inspired others based on the comments I’ve received to do the same as they define it for themselves.
Susan Dunlop: Okay. Can I ask you then, so you’ve got the book. You’ve got the three audios. How is that all related? Just for people out there that haven’t seen all this yet? You’ve got three audios that are about 15 minutes each, 12 to 15 minutes I think. Just tell me more about that so people will know what’s there and how they can go about getting, because we’re about to wrap up.
Vicki Paris Goodman: Okay. Wow, that went fast. So if you go to inspiredgrief.com, you can subscribe to the audio episodes, which are free, and I would suggest everyone just go right to inspiredgrief.com, put in your email address and first name. That will subscribe you to those audio episodes, which are there as Susan said, 12 to 15 minutes each. Most of the insights are included there, and I think they’re very powerful. The book can also be purchased at a discount at inspiredgrief.com. And there’s a link to my author website from that landing page. It says blog and I have some blog articles on my author website, but you can get to those from inspiredgrief.com too. There’s a little button that says blog. It’s all on that one landing page. I would encourage you to go and check it out and definitely subscribe to the free audio.
Susan Dunlop: Okay, you’re going to be showing up in someone’s inbox at a regular occurrence, it helps people feel they’ve got some support to move forward on their journey
Vicki Paris Goodman: If you subscribe, you will begin getting the emails I send out several times a week. And those are entertaining too. And that’s apart from the blog. You can pick and choose.
Susan Dunlop: Ah, so that’s separate from the blog.
Vicki Paris Goodman: my blog is some articles that I wrote, but if you subscribe to my audio episodes, you will begin getting my emails that have thoughts about the book, the new book, and anything else I can think of. Most of it’s been pretty entertaining.
Susan Dunlop: Oh, fantastic. That’s really good. thank you Vicki for joining me today.
Vicki Paris Goodman: It was my pleasure, Susan.
Susan Dunlop: We had a little bit of a hiccup last week with technical issues and you very gracefully said, let’s just postpone.That was wonderful and I appreciate that. I’ve been struggling with this cough for six weeks now, so I think it’s much better that we left it to this week. And you were wondering whether you were a fit for my show when we had our first chat. And I said, of course you are. All of us appreciate hearing stories such as yours.
It’s not all business for me, and we’re all living a life, and we’re all going to pass at some stage, and we’re all going to have to deal with what you’ve spoken about. I loved seeing those words, inspired grief. That was interesting to me. It caught my attention. So you’ve given me the details about where people can reach out to you.
Is there anything else you’d like to end on?
Vicki Paris Goodman: I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered it. If you do suffer the loss of a loved one, maybe be open to that guidance coming your way. It might lead you in a direction that you didn’t expect to be led, and it might be a very good thing.
And be open to those opportunities that come your way. Guilt-free. Don’t worry about the guilt. If opportunities start presenting themselves, maybe that’s because you should embrace them. Just remember to create that balance between those activities and the quiet time. And don’t be surprised if you come home afterwards, and feel empty inside because that person you used to share everything with isn’t there anymore.
It’s okay. It’s the best that things can be right now. You can change that later on when you’re ready.
Susan Dunlop: Oh, thank you. That was a beautiful way to end. Thanks Vicki.
Listeners, what was one key takeaway you got from this conversation today, from all that Vicki has shared with us? If you have any questions from today’s episode, please send them to me via [email protected] or message me on LinkedIn or I’m on Instagram as simply leadbelievecreate.
I am forever thankful to my beautiful guests such as Vicki for allowing me to understand them more and to share their stories. Trust that you are blessed even when you forget that you are blessed. Take care of yourself.
I look forward to being back soon. Bye for now.